Arthur W. Frank 教授のリプライ

Arthur W. Frank (University of Calgary)

(フランク) My notes are defi nitely more chaos than meaning, actually, and more chaos than story.
(有馬) 私のメモは、非常に混乱してしまっています。しかし、コメントいただいた方々に、なるべくお答えできるような形で、少しテーマを絞ってお話ししてみたいと思います。

(フランク) I guess because the comments are not in the form of questions that I can respond to correctly, let me try to pull out several themes that seem to have emerged. The fi rst one is this distinction between asking people to tell a story, really soliciting a story, and in some cases stronger words have been used—demanding people, requiring people to tell stories—and that's what came out in the court examples, in the early Europe case.
That surely has never been what I was talking about. What I've always been more interested in is permitting or possibly facilitating people telling stories, and that's where there really is a research problem for me because the goal of the researcher is to be a kind of facilitator. That means that we're dealing with a highly unstructured kind of an interview. If people don't seem to want to discuss something, then I think the interviewer simply has to let that be, and let the silence be the testimony, and that's where I very much agree with [Maki's] point- that silence often is the most eloquent testimony to what's going on. So I think we would have to talk about specifi c contexts, in which there seems to be this pressure requiring various kinds of stories.
(有馬) まず、「他人に物語ることを促すこと」と、「他人に物語を強要すること」とは区別できます。

(フランク) The second issue, which seemed to emerge from Professor Amada's questions, is again this balance between burden and benefit. I don't think that that question can be answered in any general terms, because certainly my experience of illness narratives, and of people talking about illness experiences, is that what one person experiences as a burden can be experienced by someone else as a benefit.
There just aren't any general principles. It's the same problem I run into when I'm speaking to medical audiences, and they'll say, “well, what do you say to patients when…” Well there's no such thing as a patient- there's just this individual, and what may be the right thing to say to one individual can exactly the wrong thing to say to another individual, and that's the art of it. That's why I like about the program here being called Ars Vivendi.
Because it really is an art of doing these things, and part of the difference, part of what distinguishes an art, is that there are some general principles, but art forms are always slightly eccentric, they're always slightly different. What makes them beautiful is very often their deviation.
So I think the diffi culty for the Ars Vivendi program is how you balance the need for a certain degree of generalization, a certain degree of standardization, with the necessary imperative that everything is individual, and what works quite well in one case will be quite destructive in another case, and really the only general rule is you have to go very slowly and see what's working here.
You know, what seems to be burdensome and what seems to be beneficial in this particular case? And every time you start, you're starting anew…you're beginning from the beginning, every single time.
(有馬) 第二の問題、これは天田先生の質問のなかで出てきた問題ですが、それは、コストと利益とをいかに釣り合わせるか、という問題でした。この質問には、一般的な表現をもちいて答えを出すことはできないと思います。病の物語に関する私自身や他の人々の経験からいって、ある人が負担として経験する事柄とまったく同じ事柄を別の人は利益として経験するからです。
 包括的な原理などというものは存在しません。これは、私が医療従事者を相手に話しているときに起きるのと同じ問題です。彼らは「かくかくしかじかの場合、あなたなら患者に何と言いますか」と私に訊いてきます。しかし、患者なんていうものはありません。そこにいるのはあくまでも個人なのです。そして、ある個人の場合には正しいと言えることであっても、同じことが他の個人の場合にも正しいとはかぎらない。そしてこれこそが「アート」なのです。私が、Ars Vivendi と呼ばれるここのプログラムを好きなのもそのためです。

(フランク) The last thing I want to address is that I think I have a slightly different premise, perhaps, from Professor Tateiwa, in that my premise is that stories come first. We all begin developmentally with stories.
One of the most important quotations to me in narrative literature is when the philosopher Alasdair MacIntyre says, “deprive a child of stories, and you produce an anxious stutterer”- he uses “stutterer” in a metaphorical sense. But I think that's true.
Just translate that and I'll wait.
(有馬) 最後に、私は自分は、立岩先生とは、すこし異なる前提に上に立っていると思います。私の前提にあるのは、物語がまず始めにくるということです。私たちはだれでも、物語とともにはじまり、展開していくのです。

(フランク) I think what MacIntyre's getting at is that developmentally we have to have stories first as a way of organizing all this array of stuff into what we then understand as experience. Our very possibility of experiencing the world depends fi rst of all on stories, as when you have the children who are described in the education example I gave, who are in the sort of residential facility/school.
One of the aspects of the disorganization of their lives- the reason they're in legal problems, all kinds of problems…is that they've been deprived of stories as children. To me there's a specifi c relationship between these children not knowing the basic folk tales/fairy tales that other children know and the disorganization of their lives.
And a crucial move in helping them put those lives back together, is to fi ll back in the stories that most children had much earlier, which are then the basis on which we organize life into experience.
Because experience requires particular sets of demarcations and boundaries and categories, and it requires one thing be marked off from something else, and it's stories that give us that very basic, fundamental capacity to divide time and space and action, into the kind of episodes that the notion of experience depends upon.
(有馬) マッキンタイアがここで言おうとしているのは、すべての事柄を、経験として理解できるものへと秩序付けるためには、私たちにはまず物語が必要なのだ、ということです。世界を経験することが可能なのは、まず物語があるからなのです。

(フランク) The last point, just to fi nish that…one of the questions I'm concerned to ask is about all of the different kinds of equipment that humans have to lead our lives. Some of that is physical equipment: clothes, food, transportation. Some of it is more psychological/organizational equipment: governments and linguistic syntax. All of this is equipment that we have.
When are stories particularly useful for as one kind of equipment? They are only one kind of equipment, but what is their importance as that one kind of equipment?
(有馬) 最後に、考えておきたい問いがあります。つまり、人は生きていくのに必要なさまざまな道具をもっている。たとえば服や食べ物や交通手段のような物理的な道具もあれば、政府や統辞法といった組織的あるいは心理学的な道具もある。そのようなさまざまある道具のなかで、物語とはいったい特にどのような目的のために有用な道具なのだろう?

(フランク) Now, the thing about a good story- this is a good point to end on- the thing about a good story is you can never quite fi gure it out. There's something always elusive, something uncertain, something fundamentally open-ended about a good story.
(有馬) よい物語の特徴は、それがどういうものなのか理解し尽せないところにあります。よい物語には、常に、どこか捉えどころのない部分がある、明確ではないところがある、根本において、解釈の余地を残している。そのようなところがあるものです。

(フランク) And so what these elusive, open-ended stories can do for us as a kind of equipment, is help us deal with lives that are also open-ended and elusive. I mean, the point of my life is that there's a whole lot of it that I just can't fi gure out, there's a whole lot of it that's strange, that's just out there, and by telling stories I'm able to deal with a life in which there are parts that make sense and there are parts that are mine but they don't really make sense. Our fundamental human problem is bringing those both together and living with them. And that, I think, is what stories as equipment are particularly good for allowing us to do.
(有馬) このように、捉えどころのない、解釈の余地のある物語が、ある種の道具として、私たちが生きていくために役立つといえるのは、生もまた、やはり解釈しきれない、捉えどころのないものとしてあるからです。私の人生の意義は、その大部分が、私には理解できないということ、大部分が奇妙なものであること、そこにある。そこで、物語ることによって、私は、部分的に意味を成し、また部分的にはあまり意味を成さないような生を、うまく生きていくことができる。こうした両方の部分を束ねて、両方とともに生きることを可能にする。物語という道具は、特にこのことをするのに有効な道具なのです。

(フランク) I do have to say one more thing: the other thing that's brilliant about stories, that's just so great about stories, is that you can always move to another level. You can always tell a story about telling a story. So if someone is imposing a storytelling on you, and that's burdensome, you can tell a story about that being burdensome. In being able to move to another level, and tell a story about storytelling, you get some degree of freedom back again. So I think the possibility of stories to allow people to jump out of one frame into another is absolutely crucial to their value as human equipment. Now I really will be quiet.
(有馬) もう一つだけ言っておかなければならないことがあります。物語のもう一つ素晴らしい点は、語り手が、常に、別のレベルに移動することができる、というところにあります。常に、物語ること自体について物語るということができる。だから、もしも物語ることを押し付けられて、それが負担になるのであれば、その負担であるという事態について物語ればよい。こうして次のレベルに移動することができれば、もう一度、いくらかの自由を取り戻すことができる。これで本当に終わりにします。